The Uncast Show
Owning an Unraid server gives you the ultimate control over your data and reduces your dependence on The Cloud. Join host Ed Rawlings to learn how to get the most out of your Unraid server, stay up to date on relevant news and topics, and get to know members of the Unraid community!
The Uncast Show
Unlocking Home Automation with Joshua Kelleway of IAM Systems
Curious about how to get started with Home Automation? This episode of the Uncast Show promises to teach you with expert insights from Joshua Kelleway, the founder and lead system integration consultant at IAM Systems in Australia. Whether you're starting out with small home projects or working on professional setups, Josh’s journey and expertise will guide you through the nuances of home automation.
Joshua shares his top recommendations for hardware and home lab servers, explaining why Unraid stands out with its user-friendly interface, ease of training, and efficient deployment and recovery capabilities, making it a reliable choice for their IAMHOME server product.
For the DIY smart home enthusiasts, get the latest on current home automation trends and general advice on brands and hardware to avoid. Joshua also provides practical advice on starting with Home Assistant and using Zigbee-based devices for retrofitting lighting systems. Also, we compare various home automation technologies and examine the best practices for smart camera placements and climate control systems. Security-conscious listeners will appreciate our deep dive into the benefits of PoE cameras over Wi-Fi cameras and how advanced geolocation-based automation can make managing your home a breeze from anywhere. Tune in for an info-packed hour filled with expert recommendations and innovative solutions for your smart home needs.
Learn more about IAMSystems and the IAMHOME home servers powered by Unraid:
Interested in a fully set up IAMHOME server? https://iamsystems.com.au/contact/
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Hi guys, and welcome to another episode of the Uncast Show. Now today we've got a very special guest. We've got Josh Kelleway, who's the founder and lead system integration consultant at IAM Systems over in Australia. Josh, it's great to have you. Thank you very much for taking the time out of your day to speak to us. Thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 2:Thanks very much, Ed. It's a privilege to be on the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you very much. I know it's, you know, the evening for you, so I especially appreciate you taking the time out of family time to be able to talk to us Now. You know, just before we start there's a little section I like to do called quickfire questions, just some little kind of simple questions so the audience can get to know your personality. Um, so the first one is android or ios ios 100 and what's the most used app on your phone probably the home app yeah, and texting or calling, which do you prefer?
Speaker 1:calling? Yeah, I'm old, that's um. You know. Most people say texting, so cool I'm old coffee or tea coffee. Do you have tea in australia?
Speaker 2:I guess you do we do have tea here and we have obviously lots of british people, so there is tea that's popular, but no coffee right, yeah, yeah, me too um coffee or an energy drink like I've got here I've given up the energy drinks, but too many copies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're not they're not very good for you, are they really? I probably should too. So kind of in the vein of coffee are you an early bird or a night owl?
Speaker 2:night owl.
Speaker 1:Night owl.
Speaker 2:And what's your favourite?
Speaker 1:open source project, had to say Home Assistant, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And favourite movie or TV show. Favourite movie of all time Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Favourite TV show at the moment I'm loving For All Mankind at the moment.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's pretty cool. And cats or dogs are you a cat or a dog person, or neither, I guess. No, crazy dog person Always have lots of dogs and other people's dogs in the house that I'm looking after. Oh nice, yeah, I'm a I'm a dog lover, but I've got um a dog and two cats at the moment, so dog.
Speaker 2:Dog's not doing its job.
Speaker 1:You've got two too many cats um, I normally finish off my quickfire questions asking if you'd like to go forward in time or back in time, but I asked that to too many people, so I've got a special one for you. Josh, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?
Speaker 2:There are no shortcuts in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, anyway, so let's just dive right in. Josh, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what inspired you to actually start up IM Systems?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so my background had been in IT recruitment, but I had always been home lab enthusiast and a tinkerer. I lived in a building that ran a lighting system called CBUS. I don't think it was ever that popular in the US, but it was very popular in Australia. I got into tinkering with that, along with all of my other home lab stuff, and after a while left corporate world a bit disillusioned and started doing small IoT projects and that sort of thing. So initially it was wireless lighting controllers and that sort of stuff that we were doing direct for customers.
Speaker 1:Right, and what kind of systems were you running that on?
Speaker 2:So all of our projects were generally built around Home Assistant. So all of our projects were generally built around Home Assistant 95% of the time. Then Home Assistant passing devices out into Apple HomeKit.
Speaker 1:Right, Sorry, go on. Sorry, Josh. So at the beginning were you running Home Assistant on Raspberry Pis, I believe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. So we started out running Home Assistant on Raspberry Pis Sorry, before that. Originally the first thing that we actually ran was a Raspberry Pi that ran HomeSeer on it, and that was the original tool that we first started using. That then moved to Raspberry Pis with Home Assistant and Home Assistant OS on the Raspberry Pi, and then it's kind of expanded from there.
Speaker 1:Right. So yeah, that sounds like quite a journey. So you know, speaking of journeys, how did you actually transition from using Raspberry Pis to kind of catering to professional home system?
Speaker 2:integrators. You know what made you make the switch home system integrators. What made you make the switch? So? Originally we were doing small projects for medium-sized homes three four-bedroom homes with some Shelly lighting controllers and a mixture of other stuff. We had some customers in high-end luxury homes that had systems like Control 4 and knx and that sort of thing in there who asked about doing apple home kit. Over that we worked with some of their systems integrators who looked after their control four environments and that sort of thing, and when a few of them saw how you could bring their tools into home kit using some of this stuff, they were all really interested in it and we've then pivoted to. We don't look after direct customer projects anymore. We provide these servers to the integrators so that they can then put them on their projects and we teach them how to use Home Assistant and how to connect it to KNX or Crestron or Dynalide or whatever they're working with.
Speaker 1:And so one of the things that you have, I guess, at the heart of your system is something you call IAM Home. Can you explain what IAM Home actually is?
Speaker 2:Sure, so IAM Home is just our name for our Unraid service. Basically they range, depending on the application that they've been used for, from a small, simple Nook unit up to 4U systems with 10 hot swappable drives and optical drives that are popular for private cinema owners who want to rip large 4K collections of their content and be able to watch that back through Plex in their cinemas and stuff like that. So, yeah, I Am Home is the name for these servers that we provide and then the management and ongoing monitoring that we offer with them as well.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So do you actually kind of set up like home cinema systems for people as well? Is that something you actually, you know, are involved in?
Speaker 2:IM Systems doesn't do that, but we partner with a lot of businesses that do specialize in that space. So we partner with several of the businesses out there that specialize in designing and building high-end luxury home cinemas. Um, so it's fun. We get to go along to lots of those projects and I get to see some crazy setup nice.
Speaker 1:So basically you're kind of running things like um, home assistant, homebridge and scripted on the service, can you um? For people who are watching they might not actually know what some of these things are. So I think you know, let's explain to the viewers what these actual things are. You know what is Home Assistant, Homebridge and scripted?
Speaker 2:Sure, I'll give you a quick basic rundown. Home Assistant is an open source project that has been running for quite a while. That goal is to provide relatively simple local-based control of your home automation environment, where you're not giving and sharing data with any other third parties and cloud providers and that sort of thing. It's all hosted on your own server within your own network environment, posted on your own server within your own network environment and, because of its popularity and there are so many contributors to the project now it's very hard to find anything that has an IP interface to it that Home Assistant won't talk to.
Speaker 1:I guess as well, because it integrates so many different things together. It can connect things together that normally maybe not be able to connect together. Is that another reason you chose Home Assistant?
Speaker 2:That's right. We can go and connect all sorts of different things that at this stage in the professional integrator world have no way of communicating with each other In Home Assistant. It's very rare that we'll come across anything that can't be integrated, and then most of the time that is either being controlled by the user in Home Assistant dashboard or Google Home or generally Apple HomeKit.
Speaker 1:And what's Homebridge so?
Speaker 2:Homebridge is similar in some respects. Homebridge is another open source project that's been around for quite a while now. The original developer of that was a guy called Nick Ferreira, who originally developed it to try and get more IoT devices compatible with Apple HomeKit. It forms a bridge between a lot of popular IoT devices and Apple HomeKit, and in some cases HomeBridge might have some plug-ins that are better for a particular device than Home Assistant does. That's why we've got uses where we'll use both of them sometimes.
Speaker 1:Right. So you know someone who's going to use HomeBridge. You've got to have Apple devices to use it. You can't use it if you don't have Apple devices, correct?
Speaker 2:HomeBridge is only going to bring your devices into Apple HomeKit, so if you're not an Apple device user, pointless.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, so okay, no point me having that yeah for Android users no Homebridge, no interest at all.
Speaker 2:And then the final one is scripted, which we have two different ways that we use scripted. So scripted, in its most common use case, is just used for connecting to whatever type of camera you've got on site and then bringing that camera stream into whatever your IoT platform that you like is. So, if you're Android users, bringing those cameras into Google Home. If you're an Apple Home user, bringing those cameras into Apple HomeKit. The nice thing is any camera streams that come into Apple HomeKit. In HomeKit you can then go and set all of your recording preferences and that will all store encrypted in the cloud and you get motion recognition across all of your camera streams and all of that sort of stuff that ordinarily would be restricted to limited hardware, but scripted allows you to do it with pretty much any camera out there.
Speaker 1:And does scripted? You know, does it benefit from any kind of GPU acceleration or anything like that? Is that something needed for that, or does it not need that?
Speaker 2:So in the case where it's sending the streams just through to Apple HomeKit. No, that all happens in the cloud. There's a second part to Scripted that we also offer, which is as a replacement for people's on-site NBRs that are recording all their cameras 24-7. Scripted has its own NBR built into it that runs object recognition on all of the camera feeds. So even if you've got a really old dumb camera, it'll tell you that it's a person on it or it's a vehicle and that sort of thing. That we use the GPUs in the servers that we make for them, and those servers are typically being built with core processors in them. With a 12th or 13th gen core processor. The iGPUs on them are great. We can live, run object recognition off 30 to 40 camera streams, no problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think people kind of realize quite how good the iGPUs are on the Intel CPUs for transcoding streams. You know, I still know loads of people that buy a dedicated NVIDIA card and they've actually got the iGPU.
Speaker 2:And I say why don't you use the igpu? And they go because it's not as good. And I go try it and they're shocked. The other thing is a lot of people obviously coral, tpus and that sort of thing were were quite popular, particularly for use in nooks and that sort of thing. But we found the igpu on an n100 processor in a nook Fantastic.
Speaker 1:I do love the N100 processor. I found a really nice motherboard. It had six SATA ports, two NVMe's, four 2.5 gig NICs, an N100 CPU and it was $110 US on AliExpress.
Speaker 2:You might have to send me a link to that.
Speaker 1:I will send you a link to that one, josh. It's the ultimate kind of low-powered motherboard in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Look all of our Nook applications that we do so our basic IAM home server. They're all based on an N100. Oh, wow, yep, they're just too good to go past.
Speaker 1:So you know, using, like we were saying, home Assistant, homebridge and Scripted. You know, using, like we were saying, Home Assistant, homebridge and Scripted, you could be running it on any OS. Obviously you evaluated, I'm sure, several OSs for IAM Home. Can you walk us through the criteria you used for the evaluation when you were trying to choose an OS to run on your servers?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it obviously started out when we needed more than home assistant on a Raspberry Pi. Home assistant on a Raspberry Pi has obviously lots of inherent issues in terms of reliability of micro SD cards and that sort of thing, but working with the systems integrators on these large luxury residential sites, we also needed lots of other things in there, and a lot of them wanted um, wanted vms as well. All of their control environments are generally deployed using a windows-based deployment tool, so being able to put a vm for them to use for their deployment tools on the box became important as well. So we started looking at all of the normal path that everybody in the homelab community goes down when they're trying to work out what am I going to run on my server, um, and considered everything from running, obviously, a basic unix distro and doing it all straight from there, um, and then also looked at stuff like caster, os, uh, proxmox, um, trunas, all of this sort of stuff, and put together kind of a few criteria. When we were comparing them to each other, the idea was that we wanted to be able to redeploy them really easily at scale. So as we get more and more orders, the server is deploying a new one that's a direct copy of the way we like them built. We wanted that to be really easy. In addition to that, we wanted to be able to support them at scale quite easily, and that was a big one for Unraid, because the ability for us to go and teach staff how to support an Unraid system is quite easy for us to skill somebody up with those skills. The ability for us to go and get access to support resources that have strong Linux and Unix skills and that sort of thing is significantly harder than us being able to build those skills ourselves with a nice Unraid GUI. So that was another component that we were looking at as well as that, obviously stability was in there as well, and then future feature set and how much we were seeing new development happening there and how much support was available in terms of whatever we chose.
Speaker 2:My background is the automation side, is not the actual development or server hosting side of things. So all of this was a learning experience for me as well and the community. That I could go and watch all of the Unraid videos and that sort of thing made me realize, yeah, I can teach this to staff members to support this much easier than anything else. So those were the main criteria Can we deploy it easily? Will it be reliable? Can I teach other people to provide support on it? Well, and can I use it for all of our machines, whether that's a little nook or a great big machine with tons of drives in it. Once we kind of looked at it across, all of those things for a few different reasons, yeah, unraid, we think, stood out above the other options.
Speaker 1:It is a great operating system. I can see why it's so much easier to train staff to be able to use that than some of the other options out there. You were talking about how you wanted to move away from Raspberry Pis due to things like booting from an SD card is not that favorable. Booting from an SD card is not that favorable. Now some users with Unraid they do complain about the USB deployment in Unraid. Some people say it's a benefit, some people don't like it. So, josh, I'm going to ask you your take on this.
Speaker 2:We're in the benefit camp. We actually really like it for a couple of reasons. The reasons that we like it are in the event of a failure. If we've got loads of these servers out there we've got hundreds of these things out there on sites and there is a failure with either the USB key or the operating system, recovering from that with Unraid is the simplest thing ever. We go and pull your USB backup from the Unraid Connect cloud, load that onto a USB, put it in done. Box is live again. That's pretty hard to beat. In addition to that, because lots of the boxes that we're doing are just a small nook, not sacrificing a drive for your operating system is really appealing to us. So in a small nook application where you've got one ssd or two nvmes in there that you're running redundantly, sacrificing that to the operating system, um, we didn't want to do so. The ability to have that on the USB key, run all of our containers and VMs off the NVMEs or the SSDs we really like that.
Speaker 2:I know that there has been people who talk about issues with failures of USB keys and that sort of thing. We've experimented with different hardware and that sort of thing. We've experimented with different hardware and that sort of thing. We have very few. We've got a lot of machines out there now. We see very few USB failures. We have one machine out there at the moment that is on a solar powered site and it loses power every night without when the sun goes down. It has no graceful shutdown or anything, it just goes off and the next morning it comes back online. And it's been doing that for over quarter one perfectly wow, yeah, yeah as well.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people you know they don't actually realize. I'm sure most of our viewers realize that you know it boots off the flash drive but then everything's in ram anyway. So it's not kind of constantly reading and writing off the flash drive but then everything's in RAM anyway. So it's not kind of constantly reading and writing to the flash drive all the time it's running, like Windows would be. That's right. I think that's why people worry, isn't it, john? I?
Speaker 2:think there's a bit of a misconception out there of you can't run an operating system off the USB drive. That's not reliable and that misunderstanding comes from that. People don't understand that it's essentially storing your configuration for your operating system and then that all runs memory resident anyway. So yeah, we really liked it. It's an easy way to handle licensing. We've had very few problems with it and when we have had a failure, really easy to recover.
Speaker 1:You were saying earlier as well, Josh, that one of the reasons you picked Unraid is because you, like you, know some of the kind of future features and the development. Have you actually tried Unraid 7 beta? Now, I understand you obviously wouldn't be using this for clients because it's not stable.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:But if you have, what do you like about?
Speaker 2:it. Well, there's a few things that I'm really looking forward to to. Well, there's a few things that I'm really looking forward to For some of our larger scale systems where we're storing huge amounts of data and we also offer NextCloud for customers off their boxes and that sort of thing. Zfs offers a whole heap of great options that we're really looking forward to. Also, snapshots One of the other things that we do is we make sure all of the boxes are backing up and then they store their backups back to our central server. Um, the ability to do snapshots and stuff like that with zfs we're looking forward to.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, there's also been, as we've gone along. Each time there's been a feature that I've been like oh, it'd be really nice if. If this was changed, generally, within a month or two, somebody goes and releases it. Our remote access to the machines is built on so that we can administer them TauScale. Initially, tauscale we deployed as a container. It meant we couldn't take the arrays down on the machines because the container would go and we'd get booted out Very shortly. Tauscale within got released, problem solved and that stuff seems to keep happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tailscale, you know it's super awesome, isn't it Fantastic? What I'm going to ask you is if you could choose some kind of features to be added to the system that would really help you in your kind of business. What would be some kind of features to be added to the system that would really help you in your kind of business? What would be your kind of wish list of features that you really wish were there that aren't?
Speaker 2:So I know that there is some advancement coming around on some of these features. Obviously, we bring up all of our containers with Docker Compose rather than installing them through an app store or that sort of thing. Some of the date management within the GUI of Docker Compose created containers, I know is getting some updates and some fixes and stuff there. Additionally, the developments around the possibility to run redundant unraid servers without having to try and build yourself a Kubernetes cluster is really appealing to us, particularly some of these environments that we're putting systems into. They're very high-end environments, into their very high-end environments. It's the customers expect zero downtime, our ability to put three nooks in and have them all running together and one takeover if there's an issue with the other one. Yes, we'd love that.
Speaker 1:Have you actually seen the high availability plug-in that's in development at the moment? We're playing with it at the moment. Right, yes, yes, with it at the moment. Right, yeah, yeah, it's interesting stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's one that we're watching very closely the ability to be able to deploy three relatively cheap NUCs into a rack and have them operating as a high-availability cluster.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I wanted to ask you, josh, is how does IAM Systems ensure that all of your kind of platforms are automatically updated and backed up? How do you kind of manage that?
Speaker 2:So obviously we put in place stuff like Watchtower and that sort of thing to manage updates on all of the containers and that sort of stuff. We manage the schedules on that. We also make sure that those schedules fall slightly behind all of our test environment systems. So basically, if we see an update come through our test environment, we see issues from it, we get a chance to go and intervene before it comes through to all of the other boxes. And then as well as that, we have reporting and monitoring on all of the servers so each of them report uptime status. They report all of their updates out to a central location. So anytime that there's an issue with anything, any of these integrators can go back and say oh okay, right, there was an issue there. That box updated Home Assistant at that time. Let's go and have a look there, we'll investigate and we'll fix the problem.
Speaker 1:Well, that's super cool how you kind of have like test environments that are updating first and then everything's kind of delayed for the proper. That's very, very smart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the idea is to try and have a little bit of everything in our test environment. So, in terms of the different technologies that we communicate with, we try and have a test environment that has a bit of everything in it and it gets all of its updates instantly as they come out and everything else falls on a cycle behind that. So, yeah, generally if there's a problem, we know it's coming and in a lot of cases we can stop it from going through. Wait until the next update that solves it.
Speaker 1:And what are you using for actually monitoring? What software are you using for the monitoring? So, in terms of uptime monitoring.
Speaker 2:we're using Uptime Kumar for that and we monitor on Upttime Kumar over our talent then for our reporting coming out of the machines directly, obviously unraids own notifications tool and that's then reporting out into slack. Is is our platform of choice, and then each of the integrators get their own channel in slack where all of their boxes report to, and then, as well as that, we obviously have Watchtower and our updates also reporting out to that same Slack channel.
Speaker 1:Cool. So you've got a lot of things in place for basically seamless customer experience. That sounds really, really cool.
Speaker 2:When we started showing this stuff to integrators, a lot of them had heard of some of this stuff before and some of them were even playing with it at home. Some of them would have a raspberry pi at home, running home assistant and some home kit stuff and they were all sort of of the view of, yeah, this stuff's really cool, but I'd be too scared to run it in a customer environment in terms of I don't know how reliable it is and will it crash and all that sort of thing and with all of these things to go along with it. You can ensure that and they all seem to be adopting relatively quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's super cool. You know your business, it sounds to me. It sounds really really interesting. It's a shame you're over in Australia and not over here in Europe.
Speaker 2:It's great fun. We get to be involved on some really cool projects and get to play with cool stuff. It's a lot more fun than a corporate recruitment career was.
Speaker 1:So can we actually talk about some of your current projects? I was reading on your website. Can you share details about the projects like these sunny hills apartment and the mossman home retreat and home 14, those?
Speaker 2:I can. So the the difficulty for us has always been able to showcase projects that we're involved on. Generally, we're not engaged by the end customer, so we're brought in by a systems integrator. Lots of these projects will have a builder and a million stakeholders involved, and us getting permission to showcase the project is relatively rare. So these are some of the few projects where we've either been engaged by the end customer or it's been a project where we've gotten permission, and so they're some of the ones that we're featuring.
Speaker 2:So the Surrey Hills Apartments was actually a collection of 12 apartments in a little boutique building. They each had some basic automation in them. We went and rented all of them off. The owners fitted them all out with nice furniture, no-transcript. So it was a cool project as well, because we got to do not just each of the individual apartments automation but the building as well. So when a guest checked in, they'd immediately get access on their phone to the building's lobby door and the door to the apartment they were staying in and all that sort of stuff, and it'd disappear as soon as they checked out.
Speaker 2:Um, so that was, uh, that that was one of our earlier projects. Um, the mossman home retreat is a luxury renovation on a on a home that at the time the owners decided right, while we're doing a renovation, we'll do a technology update there. And it was a good one because we got a lot of say in what the technology that went in was. In a lot of cases we come in at the end and have to work with everybody else's stuff. So it was a fun one where we got the cycle unify everything, unify protect for all of the cameras and all of that sort of stuff. And then Home 14 is a recent project that has just gone live for us. It's a new build. It's a large Control 4 system that runs it. The lighting in there is all actually PNX. It's a big environment with a big mixture of stuff that we've got all coming into home kit really nicely. The owner's spec was I want siri voice control for anything within the control four system. Um, so yeah, it's, uh, it's a nice one.
Speaker 1:It was a really impressive build going back to the first lot of apartments you were talking about, um. I was reading on your website that sadly they had to close due to covid and um not getting enough tourism. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:yeah, unfortunately, it was an idea where we were able to fund having these really cool demonstration spaces that were all fully automated by running them as airbnbs. They were in a very popular location in sydney, uh, they're really well placed, so they did really well as airbnbs until covid came along and that all ended and we then had a whole bunch of apartments that we were paying rent on with nobody booking them, um, so that was unfortunately the the end of of that one that our system is still running in there.
Speaker 1:Um, however, we're no longer running running them as airbnbs when I first read that I was thinking to myself you know now you've told me about how complex it is there and everything. I was thinking I wonder if, um, it was due to covid that josh swapped from raspberry pies to unraid because he couldn't buy Raspberry Pis in COVID. I was thinking, is that somehow joined together?
Speaker 2:But obviously it's not there actually was a part of the reason that we moved away. We're starting to look at also from a price point, the cost of a current, when we were having trouble getting our hands on them as well. But even now, when you look at a current model Raspberry Pi versus an N100 built NUC, we felt that we were getting much more out of similar money and N100 NUC was offering us a better platform. But yes, obviously shortages during COVID were another reason that we started looking at other options.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because even the Raspberry Pi 5 is quite expensive. Really, you know, it's about the same as a n100 motherboard with the cpu isn't it?
Speaker 2:that's right. By the time you've specced it with all of the stuff that you want in it, you've got a power supply and a case and all of that sort of thing. If we're buying our nooks in relative quantities and that sort of thing, if we're buying our NUCs in relative quantities and that sort of thing and we're securing an N100 with 16 gig of RAM and a 500 gig SSD cheaper than what I'd be buying retail Raspberry Pis for, so you know you normally go for 16 gigs of RAM in most of the NUCs, do you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, in the NUCs our base is is 16 gig um just with the allowance to run a windows vm on there, while they've got um all of their camera systems running and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:16 gigs are standard you know, when I was reading about the n100 on the intel site it kind of says the maximum RAM is 16 gigs. But I've actually got one running with 32 gigs. 32 does actually work on it.
Speaker 2:We haven't tried one yet, but I must admit I've got a few sitting here and at one point I was thinking, yeah, let's stick some extra in there. See what happens.
Speaker 1:You know, the funny thing is is like the server that I've got it running in, I think it uses about 5% of that. It was a bit of it was a bit of a waste of money, but again it's like. It's like, you know, wanting a, wanting a ferrari that does 190 miles an hour.
Speaker 2:You know it's nice to know you've got it, but you're not gonna, you're not gonna use it maybe I think a lot of the home lab community works a little bit on that concept of wanting to build something that is dramatically over-engineered and overpowered for what its primary application might be.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you, josh, you know your business. It sounds really really super cool. I'm really really impressed with it. It's absolutely awesome. What I'm wondering is, like you know, what are your future plans for the business? You know, know, you know. So where do you see the business going from now?
Speaker 2:so from here, we're still growing the numbers of integrators out there who understand this idea of using open source platforms and tools for home automation systems. Um, so most of our time and attention is focused on demonstrating this stuff to them and getting them playing with it in their own environments, which then gives them the confidence to start deploying it on their client sites. The other big market that we focused on a lot is the disability space and working with automation for people with mobility disabilities voice control for them. They're really fun projects to work on. So we've got quite a few projects coming up in that space and we're looking at trying to do more in that space as well.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Yeah, that's really really cool With the integrators and open source stuff. What kind of worries do they have about using open source? Do they kind of worry that it's not secure, or do they worry that the projects are going to a high-end residential environment where home build might have cost tens of millions of dollars?
Speaker 2:Those customers aren't particularly forgiving of outages and their systems not working, particularly forgiving of outages and their systems not working. So that's been. The main thing is that most of them have thought, oh, this is the ones that have heard about it think this is great stuff to play with at home as a toy but can't be deployed effectively in a production environment. And that's our main focus is showing that if you have the extra tools to go with it, you put in place all of the right processes for monitoring and maintenance that they can be entirely reliable in a large production environment.
Speaker 1:Cool. So, anyway, I'm going to just kind of move on and just while I've got you on here, josh, I'm going to ask you some things about home automation. What are some of the top trends that you're seeing in home automation this year?
Speaker 2:So it's interesting being in Australia. We lack a bit behind what you guys have access to in the US. Obviously, the further development of matter and the standards associated with matter is the big thing in the home automation world at the moment.
Speaker 1:Can I just stop you, Josh? One moment, just for people who don't know what MATA is, what is.
Speaker 2:MATA standard that has been put together by a conglomerate of all of the major tech providers Apple and Samsung and have all collaborated to put together a standard so that all devices can communicate over this standard and there's a centralized standard, as opposed to the current world of this device works here and this device doesn't work in this platform. Matter is supposed to be our magical solution to that.
Speaker 1:Right, so it's basically to stop us having 5,000 apps on our phone for all the different things, I guess.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. Real automation is obviously about a single place that controls everything, not 14 different apps. Oh, this one for the lights and this one for the air con and that sort of thing. Matter is the standard. That should mean that any manufacturer can go and produce hardware, make sure that it meets these standards and it will then work in all of the major platforms. Whether you're an Apple user or a Google user, it won't make a difference. So that is the major thing in the industry at the moment.
Speaker 1:Matter's quite a new thing. If I'm not mistaken, it's only been around for a few years, is that right?
Speaker 2:That's right. It's still a developing standard that going forward is still adopting more different device types and that sort of thing. So whether they support batteries and solar stuff and camera streams and that sort of thing. So whether they support batteries and solar stuff and camera streams and that sort of thing. So it is a developing standard. It is being implemented slowly by some of the automation companies out there, faster by others, but it is the talk of what the future has for home automation.
Speaker 1:Right, I'd like to ask you for kind of people who are wanting to DIY this kind of thing. What advice would you give to someone who's just starting to build their first smart home setup?
Speaker 2:Starting point, obviously, home assistant. It is the easiest starting point you're going to find. There's a ton of videos on YouTube that will get you up and going In terms of devices and that sort of thing to look for in the home for lighting control and that sort of thing. We like Zigbee-based. If you're retrofitting into an existing environment, zigbee-based pucks that you wire up to the existing lighting circuit um, pretty hard can I?
Speaker 1:can I just stop? Stop you. Sorry, one second, josh. This is just only for my own interest. Do you have a neutral wire in your lighting in australia by default or not? It?
Speaker 2:depends very much on where you're at actually. So quite regularly you'll find at the switch that we don't have neutral at the switch, that a lot of places here are wired with loop at ceiling rather than loop at switch.
Speaker 1:So the best ways we've found for wiring the pucks is, rather than wiring them up behind the switch, is wiring them in the ceiling up where the loop wire is for the switch, because at that point you always have you always have a neutral layer so for people that don't know what we're talking about, the reason I'm asking josh about a neutral wire is in the uk we don't really often have neutral wires in the light switch, and when you put in a smart switch that has zigbee, it has to draw power from the circuit and you need the neutral wire for that. I think some things have like a little capacitor and things like that.
Speaker 2:In there there's actually quite a few bits out there now that will get around without a neutral wire. Uh, if in the uk, if you want to do a cost-effective retrofit with no neutral wires, the Shelly Pucks are the way for you to go. No Z-Wave, no Zigbee. It's important that you have good Wi-Fi in the house, obviously, but you can wire all of the Shelly range now with no neutral.
Speaker 1:Anyway, sorry, I kind of rudely interrupted you there for my own kind of personal reasons. Yeah, that's all right. So, yes, commonly no neutral. Anyway, sorry, I kind of rudely interrupted you there for my own kind of personal reason yeah, that's all right.
Speaker 2:So, yes, commonly, no neutral at the switches here very common. So best case if you're building a new home, best case, best practice for lighting control is obviously a central bus controlled lighting system like knx or that sort of thing. But if you're retrofitting and doing a diy in your existing home and you want to do that cost-effectively, yeah, a wireless puck is like a Shelly or a Zigbee or a Z-Wave puck. It's pretty hard to go past. They're pretty cheap. We found reliability and longevity on them to be really good. We've had wireless pucks out there that have been in place for five years on them to be really good. We've had wireless pucks out there that have been in place for five years. No problems on them. On the camera and doorbell front, we try and encourage everybody to stay away from cloud-reliant cameras. That will only record your camera streams up to the cloud.
Speaker 1:What would you recommend for a ring doorbell alternative, if I can make any?
Speaker 2:recommendation go Unifi Protect for all of your cameras and use the Unifi Protect doorbell alternative. If I can make any recommendation go unify protect for all of your cameras and use the unify protect doorbells if we're expecting a project. That's our go-to, and as well as unify access for the access control. Um, for some people that's a bit expensive. Other than that, our favorite, our favorite door station in the professional integrator market is the Doorbird door station. Again, it's not a cheap unit, but it's a very nice unit.
Speaker 1:I bought an Amcrest doorbell which just has an RTSP stream that comes off it Yep, and I just wired it into the normal doorbell wiring and it's been working for probably three or four years and I think it cost me $100 US.
Speaker 2:Yeah pretty much. If you go and look, make sure you can find something that supports an RTSP stream, preferable, if you can, something that will support OnViv. The benefit of supporting OnViv is you get the motion detection off the device and you'll also get alerts about the button pressed if it's a device that has an actual strike or a lock controller in it. Generally, on viv will give you the ability to trigger that strike and that sort of thing as well what's your opinion on philips, hue, light bulbs and that kind of thing?
Speaker 1:is that something you don't like? No, we.
Speaker 2:We love the Hue range, actually For accent lighting and LED strip lighting control. Love the Hue range. We wouldn't generally recommend Hue for your in-ceiling downlight, for downlighting and fixed lighting in a ceiling no, we prefer central dimmers and central controllers for that. Generally, most people don't want rgb in their ceiling down lighting either. But for your accent lighting lamps around the place, rgb led strip lighting and outdoor stuff if you want to add some color in the garden. Works with every platform out there, whether you're Google, android, alexa all runs locally and seems to be. We've got a lot of new gear out there that's been in place for ages, no problems.
Speaker 1:Can you get any kind of outdoor lighting that's solar powered?
Speaker 2:that's smart, pretty limited here Again also what we see in Australia because we're 240 volt. Here we see a significantly less range than what the US market sees. But at this stage we've seen pretty little in the solar powered garden stuff. That's actually smart. Yeah, I've seen pretty little in the solar-powered garden stuff. That's actually smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been looking for some outdoor stuff that can be smarter than my RF remote.
Speaker 2:Go. The Hue stuff. The Hue stuff all comes with your outdoor wiring. It's all low voltage, so it's all all 12 volt outdoor rated cable that you can put in the ground. If you're going to diy, add some color and light to the garden, it's it's the easiest way to do it.
Speaker 1:It's not cheap but it looks good and and you get a good effect from it and for someone like I say, starting a new smart home project at home, what would you recommend they use for controlling their power?
Speaker 2:outlet sockets again, if you're if you're going to be using other hue product and you're going with other hue lighting products and you just want basic power outlet control, the hue outlets are hard to beat. If you're going with other Hue products, so you've already got a Hue bridge in there, Then yes them. Other than that, any TP you find on Amazon these days that has a vaguely recognizable brand on it. They all work pretty well. All TP-Link smart outlets and all of that stuff all works quite nicely. Now We've tested lots of that stuff to see. Are they calling home with any funny stuff? And we've seen very little of that.
Speaker 1:Do you use much Tasmota stuff at all? There's less, I believe, the Shelly stuff. A lot of it's Tasmota, isn't it? A lot of the Shelly stuff, a lot of it's tas motor isn't it?
Speaker 2:a lot of the shelly stuff is tas motor based and we're seeing a lot more of the esp32 based stuff that we're seeing here as well. So, particularly if we're using a zigbee coordinator um, we'll typically use like a poe um zigbee coordinator and a lot of them that we're seeing are based on the ESP home platform. As well as that, we're seeing a lot of the Z-Wave or the Zigbee sensors and motion sensors and stuff that we're seeing coming out here underlying again the ESP home. Behind that, but less so of the Tasmota in the australian products that we're getting here yeah, so I used to flash the um, the old sonoff stuff.
Speaker 1:It was pretty easy, but I don't think you can do that anymore, can you?
Speaker 2:I think they've changed I haven't had a go with the sonoff product range recently. They are quite an attractive option, particularly on that wireless lighting puck option. We haven't tried them in australia. Um, the zigbee puck ranges that are actually fully certified for australia is the, the clips of wiser range. So if we're going for a zigbee puck in australia it's pretty much always going to be a clipsipTool Wiser puck.
Speaker 1:A while ago for one of my clients. I don't you know, in my day job I don't kind of really do home automation stuff like you do. But I kind of got roped in by a client I'd known for many years and he has a kind of metal plating factory where they have tanks where they have to have things inside different chemicals at different kind of temperatures, yep. And so he said, oh, ed, why don't we just use home assistant and sort of do all this stuff? So we did, and we set up taz motor, um, shelly, no sorry sonoff flash devices which could monitor the power, turn things on and off, and have a temperature probe that would go into the tank and then so it could turn the tanks off at the right time. But what he's been finding is that he bought a whole load of them but he's running out and he's getting worried that he's not going to be able to replace them.
Speaker 2:So we're actually doing some work at the moment with a provider here that offers a geothermal home heating product, and using Home Assistant to control all of the additional subsystems that can be attached to that using valves to control where the water flow goes and temperature probes for that. And yeah, we found building that stuff out in home assistant is actually quite easy to do and it's really nice for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got something up here. Oh sorry, Um a UK company. Um, I'm not sure if you can see that.
Speaker 2:Bring it a little bit further to the center for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now the center is the opposite way.
Speaker 2:Yes, there we go. Yeah, we're good there.
Speaker 1:Local bytes and kind of. This is what our kind of UK plugs look like. That's one of them inside, but they're pre-flashed with Tasmotron. They're about $10 each. I found them about a year ago.
Speaker 2:I see also just from the packaging on that that it supports mqtt, which we are a big fan of as well.
Speaker 1:Anything that supports mqtt is really easy to work with and really easy to integrate so basically for um the home user, you were saying lighting best to get something you can wire in. Smart plugs, really anything from TP-Link, anything cheap.
Speaker 2:Anything cheap on Amazon is fine. On your smart plug, work out whether or not you actually want metering on that plug or not is probably the only thing to consider. Do you just want to be able to turn the device on or off or do you want to be able to see consumption data and that sort of thing? There's plenty that will offer the extra stuff pretty affordably as well. These days I always, on the camera front, tell everybody that you probably, even if you're running your own cameras recording locally to your own NBR and everything probably don't put cameras in private areas of your home just as a good practice. Cameras are great for outdoor spaces and common use areas and that sort of thing, but your bedroom and lounge room probably aren't great spaces for cameras, for climate control and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:Our climate control in Australia is generally quite different to what you guys have in the UK and again to what's in the US. Different to what you guys have in the UK and again to what's in the US. The typical house in Australia will have a reverse cycle air conditioner that's generally controlled by an infrared remote control In those environments, either the Wi-Fi product or the Ethernet product of that reverse cycle units their manufacturer Some of them will make them Dakin and stuff like that. We use their units when that's not available. We love for, particularly for DIY stuff at home. If you have reverse cycle and an infrared remote, give the Sensible products a go. They work straight out of the box. Point your remote at them, press the on button and that's basically it In thes. Obviously your nest thermostats and that sort of thing are popular. I don't know what the I've seen for your radiators in the uk, a few options for add-on. Uh smart thermostats for your wall mounted radiators. That, I'm assuming, are probably the most common climate control method over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't need really air conditioning in the UK because we only get three days of summer, so it's kind of a bit.
Speaker 2:And on your three days of summer it gets declared a heat wave and everybody gets warned they should stay inside because it passed 22 degrees yeah, so, yeah, so we don't have that.
Speaker 1:That so much here, um. But for the um new people to home automation I'm going to ask you as well are there any particular products you'd say they should avoid? If they see them, like you know, they're not going to work with home assistant or they're not very reliable. Are there any ones you've had problems with and you'd think, no, don't use them.
Speaker 2:I would probably avoid buying any brand that you don't recognize and that you can't. Before you go and buy anything, go and jump on a Home Assistant forum. Go and punch it into Google. Go and say that somebody else has talked about using it with home assistant. Provided somebody else has done it, it's going to be super easy, um. Provided it's using a standard technology set for its communication, it's going to work with home assistant.
Speaker 2:Weird stuff that uses its own form of bluetooth, low energy and some products like that, some of that sort of stuff you want to be cautious about, because the developer of that might not have released the standards for it, so that might be a bit more difficult. Um. Again on the cameras, I like to try and avoid anything that records to any cloud platform anywhere for a camera, um. But other than that, there's not a lot of products that we see these days that we go. I know all of their product line. I'd really stay away from the for the diy stuff as well. Have a look at some of the stuff coming out from akara is or aquara, depending on how you're supposed to pronounce. It is really good, particularly if you want direct HomeKit support and direct Matter support and that sort of stuff. The doorbells and stuff coming out of them are really impressive, so there's a lot more options for the DIY. I want to have a play at home. It's a lot easier than it used to be as well. I want to have a play at home.
Speaker 1:It's a lot easier than it used to be as well? What do you think of people when they set up a lot of IoT devices on Wi-Fi? Do you think it can slow down their Wi-Fi network because there's so much traffic if they say, have 100 Wi-Fi devices on their home network?
Speaker 2:That's not been our experience of it Generally. Again, most of the projects that we're on now aren't like that, because their lighting is a central bus control system and all of the cameras are poa and that sort of thing but, earlier on, we were doing more iot device projects and doing more work with stuff like shelly devices and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:no, we didn't see any real difference in network performance with having a bunch of IoT devices on the network. Admittedly, these were generally devices that communication with the device is a very small amount of data that goes back and forth between where we'd run our Shelleys in MQTT mode. So the amount of data going back and forth on a network for MQTT topics is so small you'd need so many devices on a network to see any real impact from that. That's been our personal view on it. Having said that, start adding cameras and doorbells and stuff that's sending camera streams and that sort of thing, and I'm sure that you could probably see some of that.
Speaker 1:So if you're doing that with lots of Wi-Fi cameras, you're better off to have a separate Wi-Fi network for that and keep it separate.
Speaker 2:If you're going for a lot of Wi-Fi cameras. Yeah, we definitely. We generally recommend to stay away from Wi-Fi cameras if possible. Obviously, knocking out Wi-Fi cameras is not particularly difficult to do and, from what I understand, it's starting to be seen in break-ins, in the US at least. Yeah, I've seen some reports of cases of people using devices to take out Wi-Fi before they break into properties in the US. I don't know that it's common, but I have seen that it is starting to happen.
Speaker 1:It is remarkably easy to knock off a Wi-Fi device. People don't realize you just need Kali Linux and a couple of scripts and you can bump off a Wi-Fi device and it will just keep not being able to reconnect. And that's what people do is. They'll knock off a Wi-Fi device and it will just keep not being able to reconnect. And that's what people do is they'll knock off a Wi-Fi camera and then break in because they've basically switched the camera off.
Speaker 2:That's right. They've effectively dropped that camera off your SSID. And even for people who wouldn't necessarily have the technical skill set to go and do that, getting your hands on something online that's pre-built already for you to do that, appears to be not particularly difficult to do so for anywhere where your camera footage is important, we pretty heavily discourage a Wi-Fi camera. Also, most of the cameras that we're deploying are generally powered by a PoE, so that's sort of doing both jobs there. We have seen some of the solar battery operated Wi-Fi cameras for out in your backyard where you don't have a cable going out there and that sort of thing, and for that sort of thing, sure, but if you can put your cameras on a cable, yeah, talking about solar cameras, one of my friend's fathers um, I've kind of known him for like 25 years.
Speaker 1:He um put some cameras up at his property and they were all solar, they all had a sim card and he he got he's in his 70s and he climbed up to the top of these trees and nailed them up at the top of these trees. And nailed them up at the top of the trees they kind of worked for like literally a few days. He went abroad and said ed, none of the cameras are working. And I said where did you put in the top of the tree? And I said well, you do realize when I'm not going up in the shade and they just, they just will run out of battery.
Speaker 1:Ian, if you're watching. I'm sorry for bringing you up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, we again generally would try and discourage. I know that there's a lot of consumer wireless solar cameras out there on the market these days that look attractive because you can throw them up anywhere. But most of our experience with solar-based cameras has been hit and miss and obviously the security of a wireless camera is dramatically reduced.
Speaker 1:Anyway, moving on a little bit, what do you think is the most underrated smart home technology or feature that you think maybe people should know about? Is there anything at all?
Speaker 2:Underrated know about. Is there anything at all underrated? Um, for the average home user? Um, if you're doing a diy smart home for your family, uh, the features that will win you the most points with a wife are probably some of the ones to consider I I knew you were going to say that, josh, and I can tell you that the components that will win you points on that front.
Speaker 2:Blind the blind automation is always something that is impressive. It's really easy to use once you've got it. It's impressive, it's really easy to use once you've got it. And additionally, particularly for Apple users who are using AirPlay in their, who are using CarPlay in their car, a HomeKit-compatible garage door controller that will immediately give you, as soon as you're in your car and approaching the house, a button on your dashboard on the car that shows you the current state of the garage door and you can tap on it to open it and tap on it to close it and that sort of thing. Uh, in most markets you can pick them up pretty cheaply these days that are directly home kit compatible. So, yeah, if you're in a car using carplay, um, get a, get an apple home pick compatible garage door controller right, cool, good advice.
Speaker 1:Do you actually use any kind of like geolocation stuff from the phone back to home assistant to do things like maybe you leave the country and you come back and you want your air conditioning on when you land at the airport? Is that kind of like automations that you program in sometimes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we will build automations in that when the last phone leaves the house. So for a family of users, when the last phone leaves the house, activate the away scene of the house, which will put all the blinds down, turn all the lights and the heaters off and arm the security system in the house. When the first phone returns home to the house, disable the alarm security system, put the blinds back up and put some lights on. When you get home, some your favorite playlist playing. Um. Another popular one is for good night scenes for or bedtime scenes. For people to have their favorite have a spotify bedtime playlist that will then play in their bedroom when they trigger that scene um, but the thing is like that might not be wife or partner husband friendly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what happens if, like I like one music and my, we can, we can offer you both.
Speaker 2:You can trigger ed bedtime or you can trigger the boss's bedtime.
Speaker 1:Whichever you prefer any common pitfalls or mistakes that you um see people make when they first set up a?
Speaker 2:um smart home look for people who, when they're first doing a diy project themselves, um, probably the the common pitfall is adding every device everywhere and ending up with a central control environment, whether that's HomeKit or a Home Assistant dashboard. That's really unruly. That's got tons of sensor information that you don't need, that have tons of different devices that actually you can't control that aspect of that device and you end up with this big clunky thing with lots of bells and whistles and buttons everywhere. But it's really awful to use. That's probably the first pain point that most people will encounter.
Speaker 1:So, basically, just keep it simple for the functions that you know you're going to use on a regular basis and don't overcomplicate it, because it's just more to go wrong, I guess.
Speaker 2:Particularly when it comes to the wife approval factor as well. The keep it simple option will work better for you in the long run.
Speaker 1:Are there any kind of upcoming innovations in home automation that you know about that you may be excited about. Anything that's not out yet that you know is coming Back on the matter front.
Speaker 2:I think that we'll begin to see more players in the professional systems integrator market who are making expensive hardware, like Crestron and Lutron and that sort of thing, starting to experiment in the Matter world themselves, which will be a big development.
Speaker 2:That will mean more compatibility of their equipment with IoT platforms and that sort of thing. There's lots of cool stuff always happening in the camera space at the moment in terms of using generative AI to report on events happening on camera feeds and that sort of thing, and events happening on camera feeds and that sort of thing. Some of your listeners might have seen some of the stuff being done with Frigate through Home Assistant and the generative AI tool and interesting notifications that, if you're in Australia, say things to you like a kangaroo hopped down the driveway and looked at a kookaburra, then hopped away down the street and getting text notifications and stuff like that. So the generative ai ability to provide reporting on cameras and overall what's happening in the home. I think we'll see lots more cool stuff in that space how you learning your uses of your home and starting to adapt that for you so you don't have to turn lights on when you want them and set temperatures when you want them. It will just learn what your typical use case is.
Speaker 1:I've got some Reolink cameras and they've got like people detection and animal detection and I was surprised at how easy it was to integrate that into Home Assistant so that after a certain time if it sees a human being in my backyard it will actually flash the lights red in the house to let me know there's someone there. And that was just like remarkably easy, really simple.
Speaker 2:And when you compared to previously, cameras were reliant and most security systems were reliant on motion detection in a camera, which is a really poor metric to actually monitor on.
Speaker 2:You have problems obviously every time the wind blows if you haven't propped all the bleeds out of the picture and all of that sort of thing. So for running automation-based events off when you know it's actually a person there, yeah, you can create really cool automations off that stuff. Also, with some of the new stuff around, obviously, homekit will actually automatically give you facial recognition across all of your camera streams as well. So if you're bringing your camera streams into HomeKit Secure Video and you go through your iCloud photos and tag your friends and stuff like that, when your friend comes and rings the doorbell, your Apple TV will come up and say Adam rang the doorbell if you've tagged him in your doorbell in your photos. So, yeah, I think we'll see more cool stuff like that. The ability to say, only open the garage when the garage camera sees my license plate stuff that was employed high security locations will become more and more available to the average home user.
Speaker 1:Well, josh, thank you very, very much. I don't want to keep you too late, because I know it's much later in Australia than it is over here in the UK. And if you can do me a really big favor, josh, just look up what the lottery results are in the UK tonight and tell me what they are, so I can you know, because you're in the future, I'm in the future.
Speaker 2:I better kind of win, no worries.
Speaker 1:No worries.
Speaker 2:I expect 75% of the winnings.
Speaker 1:Sounds good to me. Anyway, where can listeners learn more about IAM Systems and the IAM home product, please?
Speaker 2:So anybody who's interested can jump on our website at iamsystemscomau. There's information on there about the different platforms that we offer, the projects that we've been working on, the different kinds of technology that we can integrate for people and that sort of thing we offer. Our servers are available at this stage throughout Australia. However, having said that, if there were customers overseas who wanted to buy a box that came running everything for them to play with, reach out to us. We're more than happy to get them out to other people as well.
Speaker 1:And do you have any social media channels people can reach out to you on?
Speaker 2:We're still building up our social media channels, but at this stage we've got a Facebook and a LinkedIn page that I think will be tagged in the podcast.
Speaker 1:Right, awesome. Well, again, josh, thank you very, very much for your time today. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. It's been really interesting talking to you, and thank you very much to all of you guys for watching the podcast. So, from Ed and Josh, thank you very much and we'll catch you in the next one. Thank you.
